Religion is my "Thang"

[meowzician]

I believe they came from an oral tradition of lineages trying to explain how those peoples origins began.

Oral family Lineages is not an uncommon thing for a set of people to do, Jewish people just have the longest one I think.

Whomever taught Abraham his lineage got passed down to the people around the time of exodus so it quite possible Abraham had some memory of Adam. Other things get put in there sometimes that get embellished the further back things go. But it starts somewhere.

(Adam as the first human would not be true but he would be said to be so because of some translation issues maybe, he would be very important if he was the first person in the family to be remembered)

Totally agree.

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

First, I'm very sorry what your father said that to you. How harmful that must have been! That is the sort of thing that leaves deep scars. SMH

However, I need too respond to some of the truth claims you have made that are incorrect.

I must tell you that you don't understand how the Talmud works. It is a collection of debates and many points are made, good ones and bad ones, points that have become part of Judaism, and points that were rejected and forgotten. It is impossible to simply open the Talmud, read a remark, and assume that it is Judaism.

I want you to imagine the Continental Congress. Now pretend that someone was there to record all of the debates. Can you imagine all the conflicting ideas? That is what the Talmud is.

Judaism doesn't teach that non-Jews are animals. I do occasionally run across racist Jews, because there are good Jews and bad Jews like like in any other large group. Their views are not Jewish teaching. A non-Jew who lives a good moral and decent life has a share in the world to come. Their status is not different than that of a Jew who lives a good moral and decent life.

Now let's talk about the Torah. Maimonides, perhaps the best Jewish mind ever born, taught way back in the middle ages that the Genesis creation story was an allegory not meant to be taken literally. There is no historical Adam. There is no historical Eve and thus no literal mitochondrial DNA from her.

I realize there are those who do believe the story is historical. They are mistaken, inclined to the sort of concrete thinking that can confuse the figurative with the literal. Try to understand that their mistake doesn't automatically make them bad people. An intellectual error is not a moral lapse.

The story of Adam and Eve is an INCREDIBLE story. It deals with the nature of humanity, and the disharmony of our relationship with God. It is an incredibly powerful piece of literature and completely deserving of its place in our anthology of Jewish sacred texts. It doesn't need to be history to have this power. Indeed, fiction is a far, far better medium of a culture's most deeply held values.

It is a myth, although like many myths, it seems to preserve a grain of historicity. In this case I would suggest a race memory of the evolution of our human conscience, a kind of memory of how we moved from a state of innocent harmony with nature, with others, with ourselves, and with God, to a state where our developing conscience sometimes comes into odds with earlier instincts and creates dissonance.

Finally, as an ex-Catholic, and one who was highly educated in the faith, let me state that your father had a child's understanding. If you sit down to a heart to heart with a priest you will find a much more nuanced understanding of masterbation. While the Catholic Church does truly have a thing where sex has to be connected with procreation, a stance I personally find most unfortunate, it doesn't teach that masturbation for teens and young men is a mortal sin.

This is because in order for a sin to be mortal, it must be something freely chosen, and the physical pressure for young men to relieve themselves renders it an action that is not entirely voluntary. A sin? To the priest in the confessional, yes. But a venial sin, not a mortal sin. A sin on par with losing your patience with someone.

Certainly not something that a loving God would EVER smite you for.

Being raised by someone like your father, and possibly others in your parish with faith that never matured to an adult understanding, I can easily understand why you would abandon not just Catholicism but all religion. It breaks my heart when I see this sort of thing happening, because I realize it means that the damage follows you through your life. But I don't condemn you. You are doing the best you can do with the hand you have been dealt.

Nor does God condemn you.

wow ,thanks ,thats an example of maturity that i really appreaciate ,you'll get no discourse from me ,your poinst are excellent ,
i think deeply about masturbation ,i imagine the fact that women dont need to climax to make a human is proof good greated her bits for procreation and or recreaction (hence the eve bit)

i think the etamolgy of religion is union ....to unite ?

deigratia

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

In the bible before the flood it is kind of fuzzy what happens.

But Adam's son was Seth who is related to Noah whose son was Shem who goes to Abraham.

Technically no flood existed beside the Ice age deluge which happend 10,000 years ago not 6,000

But whatever happened Adam could have been a real person in Mesopotamia its just fuzzy.

We do not have records that would be 100% proof - Its not a myth exactly because Shem could be real and so far back to Adam. The story that only Noah family survived would be inaccurate but Noah could have had a relative who was Seth who had a father who may be Adam. Only the flood part makes it a myth but these people do not have to exist in such a exact flood story and could be real. So more a legend than myth.

Yes you could say the Adam and Eve story is supposed to be more of a moral allegory but that not exactly be the tradition of oral transmission of such stories because the origin of the story would need explaining. These people were not part of a written record until Moses time and it was orally transmitted but they were important enough to remember to the people telling the story.

Ahk dem adem , sorry bout spelling my ancient hebrw is rough but i think Adem means the human creature ,perhaps someone could clarify that ?

 

[meowzician]

i think deeply about masturbation ,i imagine the fact that women dont need to climax to make a human is proof good greated her bits for procreation and or recreaction (hence the eve bit)

One of the reasons I am of the opinion that Catholic teaching is so far off the mark, is that in the past all of its theologians have been limited to men, so they developed their theology without including the fact that women's climaxing is mostly clitoral, which has no connection with procreation whatsoever.

Now that the Pope is giving key positions to women theologians, it will be interesting to see if they eventually address this. It will of course be fought tooth and nail by traditionalists.

May I go off on a bit of a tangent? This is of course only me thinking.

Catholic feminists are employing the identical strategy as Orthodox Jewish feminists--death by a thousand paper cuts to the rules that oppress us. In every field that in the past has been limited to men, women have become twice as qualified. One small step at a time, those women have moved up a notch.

There are Orthodox women today given the title of Rabba and Rabbani. There are women with the authority to teach and inform on halakhic matters, especially as regards women. While they must still go to a male Rabbi for more difficult things, you can see how they are pushing further and further up, and succeeding one small step at a time.

The state of Israel is forcing the Rabbinate to allow women to take the rabbinic examinations in every subject, particularly the examinations for the Yoreh Yoreh qualification.

Although the Rabbinate is not entirley cooperative, a woman has since passed her first rabbinical ordination exam (in the laws of mourning) making her the first woman in the Chief Rabbinate's history to pass one of these exams.

In the Catholic church, the glass ceiling will shatter with the first with ordination to the Diaconate. If women are doing EVERYTHING a deacon does (and even baptisms can be done by anyone in an emergency) people will begin to protest that it absurd to withhold the title. And that will break the lock on the door to Holy Orders.

I will never see it in my lifetime, but the day will come when there are women priests, and eventually a woman Pope.

Death by a thousand paper cuts to these oppressive lockouts. Traditionalists will wake up one morning and say, "When did this happen? How did this happen? I can't remember." Most aren't paying close attention so they can't see the inevitable. A few are protesting the current changes, but there are many men in our corner that are simply overruling them (Pope Francis was one of them).

Anyhow, that's my vent of the day! LOL

i think the etamolgy of religion is union ....to unite ?

The translation of catholic is universal. I suspect that's what you are remembering.

The etymology of religion that most linguists accept today (and originally proposed by Cicero)) is:
From the Latin relegere ("to go over again, read carefully, observe conscientiously")
Re- = "again"
Legere = "to gather, read, choose"
Here, religion refers to the careful observance of rituals, duties, and sacred practices.
In ancient Rome, the Latin religio generally meant: scrupulousness, reverence, conscientious observance of rites, and a sense of obligation toward the gods.

]deigratia

Baruch haShem

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

thank you for the education ,while we're on tangents ,Jimmy Carter ex prez brought this to my attention and I added in my observations ...
presumeably to be more appealing to men ,....In England say last coyuple of decades the number one elective surgury was maybe still is ...labioplasti or neateneing and tightening of the vjayjay ..........Jimmy Carter raised awarness for the 90 % of young girls in some middle eastern countries are being horifically modified down stares by their mothewrs and aunties

presumeably to be /appear more appealing to men

odd stuff aT ODD ENDS OF 1THE EARTH

In my experience in our cul1ture Ive noticed women are womens bigges1t cri1tiques (broad stroke )


Men imo can be disrespectful when they fail to acknolage stretch marks as a badge of honour imo

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

too much ?
ftr its hard to come across pure logical assessment and tranmsfer of knolage and ideas , my take home is ....off the chain luv it

 

[meowzician]

thank you for the education ,while we're on tangents ,Jimmy Carter ex prez brought this to my attention and I added in my observations ...
presumeably to be more appealing to men ,....In England say last coyuple of decades the number one elective surgury was maybe still is ...labioplasti or neateneing and tightening of the vjayjay ..........Jimmy Carter raised awarness for the 90 % of young girls in some middle eastern countries are being horifically modified down stares by their mothewrs and aunties

presumeably to be /appear more appealing to men

odd stuff aT ODD ENDS OF 1THE EARTH

I need to know more about this. Half of me thinks that you are confusing this with something else. You might be thinking of Vaginoplasty, which tightens the vagina (usually after childbirth) and the main purpose is to make intercourse more pleasurable for men. Or you may be thinking of Female Genital Mutilation which is a common practice among Muslims stretching from Africa through the Middle East to Asia.

But truthfully, you might just telling me something new to me, and if so, I want to hear all about it.

In my experience in our cul1ture Ive noticed women are womens bigges1t cri1tiques (broad stroke )

I've heard this as well, but I'm not convinced it's accurate. The rules we judge other women's bodies by are rules we were taught by men.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely convinced that it is other women that punish women who brag. Women are much bigger on working as a group, arriving at consensus, etc. The social consequences of NOT bragging are huge, since the boss is usually a man and he promotes based on individual superiority rather than team playing.

Personally, I don't have problems with women's judgment except one thing--we need to be just as hard on men. There must be a zillion men who will go out to a NICE restaurant in jeans and a t-shirt because their mothers never taught them it was not appropriate. And men should be socially punished every bit as much for bragging--it's a horrible trait.

Men imo can be disrespectful when they fail to acknolage stretch marks as a badge of honour imo

Oh man! Yo quiero!

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

I need to know more about this. Half of me thinks that you are confusing this with something else. You might be thinking of Vaginoplasty, which tightens the vagina (usually after childbirth) and the main purpose is to make intercourse more pleasurable for men. Or you may be thinking of Female Genital Mutilation which is a common practice among Muslims stretching from Africa through the Middle East to Asia.

But truthfully, you might just telling me something new to me, and if so, I want to hear all about it.

I've heard this as well, but I'm not convinced it's accurate. The rules we judge other women's bodies by are rules we were taught by men.

On the other hand, I'm absolutely convinced that it is other women that punish women who brag. Women are much bigger on working as a group, arriving at consensus, etc. The social consequences of NOT bragging are huge, since the boss is usually a man and he promotes based on individual superiority rather than team playing.

Personally, I don't have problems with women's judgment except one thing--we need to be just as hard on men. There must be a zillion men who will go out to a NICE restaurant in jeans and a t-shirt because their mothers never taught them it was not appropriate. And men should be socially punished every bit as much for bragging--it's a horrible trait.

Oh man! Yo quiero!

“Yo quireo!”
I feel the same way
1stly “Death by 1000 papercuts”
Like 999 doesn’t quite cut the mustard

Mostly , where on the internet can a persons speak freely , considerately articulate in a way that keeps us in the para nervous system (Lisa rankin, several holy ppl)
Where ?
RIGHT FRIKKN HERE !!!!
Read through the whole thread , mind expansion presides , riffing in the available space , identifying ,preserving the scaffolding of the “sacred” , reflective generation of knowledge, coffee spits not ! Dummy spits , and the precious …coz it’s rare…amnesty for accountability,,,breaths,,,,, stands up …..with the kind of brutal honesty that got my hero Socrates towns most unpopular public influencers award ,

A place where I can think out loud on deep long held ecumenical questions like …to have the faith of Judas , that best friend who promised no matter what to pull the plug for you in the event that I end up brain dead in a hospital made of straw , a miniature self deploying parachute test flight gone horribly wrong…..

The temptation on the mount
Puts me there, me myself and I , multi faceted “Elohim” I am a physical image biological likeness,what I touch God feels and God feels good

Thanks guys you really got me thinking ….
What ? Is! why ? ?

 

[meowzician]

breaths,,,,, stands up …..with the kind of brutal honesty that got my hero Socrates towns most unpopular public influencers award ,

Socrates... Socrates... oh the memory...

My very first teaching job was at a private school run by a Sedevacantist church, so it was ultra conservative. I taught the high school students. I of course remember many of the students I've had through the years, but a teacher always remembers that first class in a different, deeper way. I still see their faces looking up at me.

When we learned about Socrates, I brought history alive by having Socratic discussions with them. They absolutely ate it up.

We began the unit on poetry with the film "Dead Poets' Society." When they received their poetry assignments, I told them to speak from the heart, and to show rather than tell. Paint me a picture. Use metaphors. I told them to make me feel what they feel, help me experience what they experience.

I got the most AMAZING poetry. A few struggled, but most did well, and few wrote such incredible poems that I asked them if I could keep their work. I still have those poems today in my chest of memories.

A place where I can think out loud on deep long held ecumenical questions like …to have the faith of Judas , that best friend who promised no matter what to pull the plug for you in the event that I end up brain dead in a hospital made of straw , a miniature self deploying parachute test flight gone horribly wrong…..

Yes! Exactly like this! This was the kind of poetry they were turning in to me. "The faith of Judas..." "A hospital made of straw..." Wow. Wow.

But then I made a huge mistake. I suppose it was inevitable. A teacher like me who delights helping children learn to think for themselves and wants to unchain their hearts is never going to do well with a group as straight laced as Sedevacantists. It is not really surprising that I was fired.

I gave an assignment that I loved when I myself was a teen. They were to pick a controversial topic and write TWO essays: one for, and one against. They had to prove their thesis statement with evidence or sound reasons. Oh my gosh, I got such fantastic sets of essays: capital punishment, liberation theology, euthanasia, abortion...

There were those decidedly not as thrilled as I was. I remember it vividly. The woman who was the head of the school's board, her black hair perfectly styled in an updo and her bright red lipstick out of place with her otherwise conservative dress, looked at me square in the face, her teeth clenched, and said, "You are corrupting our kids! You have no place here. Get your things and go. Now." Corrupting the children? Did she really just say that? Really? She was the one who had suggested teaching Socrates. I couldn't believe it. The irony.

I don't understand why these kinds of things happen to me. I imagine there are those reading this who are wondering, "Is she making this up?"

I returned to my classroom to gather my things and say goodbye. All those children, children I had come to love, were quietly working on their quadratic equations. I didn't want to badmouth their parents with the details, so I just said, "Your parents are not happy with the way I've been teaching you. I want you all to know what amazing kids you are. I will miss you so much."

The son of the very woman who had accused me of corrupting the children stood up on his chair and proclaimed in a resolute voice, "O Captain, my Captain." I stood there speechless. Things like this only happen in movies, not real life. This couldn't be real. This couldn't possibly be happening. And yet I still see him standing tall on that chair, his blonde hair slightly mussed, looking at me through those black horn-rimmed glasses with pained eyes that said thank you.

I carry his validation with me to this very day. When I am 95, I will still remember him.

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

Socrates... Socrates... oh the memory...

My very first teaching job was at a private school run by a Sedevacantist church, so it was ultra conservative. I taught the high school students. I of course remember many of the students I've had through the years, but a teacher always remembers that first class in a different, deeper way. I still see their faces looking up at me.

When we learned about Socrates, I brought history alive by having Socratic discussions with them. They absolutely ate it up.

We began the unit on poetry with the film "Dead Poets' Society." When they received their poetry assignments, I told them to speak from the heart, and to show rather than tell. Paint me a picture. Use metaphors. I told them to make me feel what they feel, help me experience what they experience.

I got the most AMAZING poetry. A few struggled, but most did well, and few wrote such incredible poems that I asked them if I could keep their work. I still have those poems today in my chest of memories.


Yes! Exactly like this! This was the kind of poetry they were turning in to me. "The faith of Judas..." "A hospital made of straw..." Wow. Wow.

But then I made a huge mistake. I suppose it was inevitable. A teacher like me who delights helping children learn to think for themselves and wants to unchain their hearts is never going to do well with a group as straight laced as Sedevacantists. It is not really surprising that I was fired.

I gave an assignment that I loved when I myself was a teen. They were to pick a controversial topic and write TWO essays: one for, and one against. They had to prove their thesis statement with evidence or sound reasons. Oh my gosh, I got such fantastic sets of essays: capital punishment, liberation theology, euthanasia, abortion...

There were those decidedly not as thrilled as I was. I remember it vividly. The woman who was the head of the school's board, her black hair perfectly styled in an updo and her bright red lipstick out of place with her otherwise conservative dress, looked at me square in the face, her teeth clenched, and said, "You are corrupting our kids! You have no place here. Get your things and go. Now." Corrupting the children? Did she really just say that? Really? She was the one who had suggested teaching Socrates. I couldn't believe it. The irony.

I don't understand why these kinds of things happen to me. I imagine there are those reading this who are wondering, "Is she making this up?"

I returned to my classroom to gather my things and say goodbye. All those children, children I had come to love, were quietly working on their quadratic equations. I didn't want to badmouth their parents with the details, so I just said, "Your parents are not happy with the way I've been teaching you. I want you all to know what amazing kids you are. I will miss you so much."

The son of the very woman who had accused me of corrupting the children stood up on his chair and proclaimed in a resolute voice, "O Captain, my Captain." I stood there speechless. Things like this only happen in movies, not real life. This couldn't be real. This couldn't possibly be happening. And yet I still see him standing tall on that chair, his blonde hair slightly mussed, looking at me through those black horn-rimmed glasses with pained eyes that said thank you.

I carry his validation with me to this very day. When I am 95, I will still remember him.

Way way ahead of your time , having had similar experiences and outcomes at varying degrees I can tell we could talk for hours …your words put me right there , I was moved to tears both of sadness and of joy ( btw anyone tears of joy are amazing )

Of all the ways a child can be “corrupted” by a roll model/authority teacher , I wish I was in your class

In year four I was thrown over the grill , heavily reprimanded and kicked out of class , my pirate story got a fail ( im actually laughing at this moment) she tore it up ( laughing harder) ….during a rough sea scene I borrowed a line from somewhere (I was 8) to create atmosphere…and the pirate was so sick he * chundered all over the deck *
I learnt my lesson for plagiarism

I still talk regularly with one of the teachers from one of the schools I was kicked out of along the way , great guy I wish he was my teacher back them too

Thank you so much for your input

Side note , around that time in my life a safe place I would go was my parish priests home , sit on the floor at his feet drink tea and talk for hours

I think we are simpatico when I say … the difference between my life and a Hollywood movie is … my life is real

to you ,Father Doyle , and the others holding open the of authenticity , thank you .
When I look at “Jesus” holding open a box with his body and nails , his sad eyes tortured at the thought of my child like mind being handicapped with conventional conditioning I feel I owe it to any teacher brave enough to dare teach “ outside” of “the””box”” to not only be the best person I can be but to be the truest person I could be

Outro
Fold up a cross it becomes a box
DeiGratia

 

[meowzician]

( btw anyone tears of joy are amazing )

Oh yes! They certainly are. My life has had so much pain. But the joy? If the pain is the price to pay for that level of joy, I would do it all over again.

year four I was thrown over the grill , heavily reprimanded and kicked out of class , my pirate story got a fail ( im actually laughing at this moment) she tore it up ( laughing harder) ….during a rough sea scene I borrowed a line from somewhere (I was 8) to create atmosphere…and the pirate was so sick he * chundered all over the deck *
I learnt my lesson for plagiarism

That's so hysterical! I would have loved to have been there.

It reminds me a little of a good friend, a genuine genius, who would do things just to mess with the teachers, all of whom he found too boring for words. Once, he was given the typical "What do you want to be when you grow up" assignment. He wrote in great detail about becoming an international jewel thief.

I think you two would have gotten along splendidly!

Side note , around that time in my life a safe place I would go was my parish priests home , sit on the floor at his feet drink tea and talk for hours

Oh, I know the type! They are truly wonderful. Back when I was first learning about Catholicism, I would hang out at the local Paulist Press bookstore. It was run by the most wonderful priest. I would pick out a book and go to pay for it, and he would exclaim, "But you haven't even read it! How do you know if you really want to by it if you haven't read it?? Here, have a seat on the couch and see if you don't enjoy it." Priceless!

In your post you shared some things about Jesus that were deeply meaningful to you. Are you still a practicing Catholic?

I think we are simpatico when I say … the difference between my life and a Hollywood movie is … my life is real

Exactly! Do you ever stop to be amazed at that? It's like rolling two ten sided dice and they come up 100.

to you ,Father Doyle , and the others holding open the of authenticity , thank you .

V'imru, Amein.

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

Looking back , I couldn’t fathom the wisdom I shared with Father Doyle and the great fortune I had not just with him but other mentors along the way , I struggle to find the same depth of mature unbiased conversation half a century later hence my presence here ( omg where have you all been all my life)
Over the years ppl known and completely unknown have shared with me things they’ve been unable to tell anyone often at their own dismay, the weight of which I imagine is manageable due to those early influences and I believe my MBTI plays a massive part in ppl feeling they can express themselves without judgment around me , with Father Doyle sitting in his home away from the stage we talked long and hard on our ethics and questions we have for God , with my Grandfather “son there are no atheists in fox holes “) 6 years ww2 , a JP in the 60’s , he once did something i don’t think anyone had ever seen , he cried because he couldn’t remember the name of the 1st 18 yo “boy” he buried under his command , still moves me to tears , he was religious in a way that should have been inculcated (maybe it was) ….point ….what am I lol I recall my question to Ron Wyatt in front of every faith ,and secular , all paying customers …” when I stand there before Jesus , re combobulated minus the tattoos , who’s gang should I say Im from ?
Psychology
They laughed at me in that you don’t belong here way , from the belly , his answer left a resounding silence that to this day gives me respite from tinnitus

I set out at 18 to prove religion was bullshit and understand why I struggle with conformity (yeah I can do it but it hurts my soul )
In brief from my perception , patterns, I started to see almost as if hilighted in marker a perfection something in debatable , so logical , it had NO FEAR , so simple , it doesn’t matter if Jesus walked around for real , words were said by someone/s wanted by two authorities for imo inviting equality (dead or alive) ,in the middle of thousands of years of history prophets generational religious sagas (thank you Judaism and martin Luther …) dogma that ,
Really mattered to you and any person right next to you , I am you you are me
IAMURME ( say it fast over and over)
Imo this is perfect
“ if the guy next door has no shirt and you have two , give him one “
“Don’t worry about what goes into your mouth ( Lord’s Prayer)
Worry about what comes out of you mouth “
“Any one mess with the / our/ my children, put a heavy rock around your neck and jump into some very deep water “

If I care for you more than I care for me and you care for me more than you care for you neither of us would want for anything

I like to say sensational things on tshirts like end greed now more give less take more real less fake but
I could it all up by saying if we alll gave more we’d all have more
Real or not ,make female which what who whatever vehicle you/jesus are/we’re in ….Thats what Jesus would have wanted
“I’ve been all around the world and met all kinds of denominations , as far as im concerned none of them have got it right “

The silence said it all

cheers beers and chubby rears
I’ve been in the Smokey tunnel twice I’ve traveled to places and conversed as an entity with out flesh (dmt) astral projection/ kundalini break out of my head like opening a lotus flour seen ppl …im … not really be ppl ….. all I know is one way or another we’re all in this together

 

[mind pilot ENTP]

Sorry , edit , that last quote was Ron Wyatt’s answer to my question