Simple, just asking

If we are talking about 2000 years ago, what kind of a “sub-set” is that? It obviously not genocidal Jews in Gaza. When we finally determined that the question he wants to address is “why did the Jews get kicked out of so many countries?”, we then, finally, establish that he is NOT talking about a subset at all—he is talking about the Jewish people.
Both can be happening at the same time. Gaining a historic perspective can give insight to why a faction develops in a particular manner.

———

It’s also difficult to define Jewish as a race because of the diversity across the globe. Though some legal jurisdiction do classify it as racism. I believe this is why the word antisemitic is usually used instead of racism.

I’ve studied this problem of power structures for a long period of time and I think I have a clear awareness of what is happening within an incredibly complex state. There are some very large power structures involved and prudence and discretion should be observed when posting publicly. I say this because I care about each of you and the community built herein.

I have mostly steered myself away from this conversation because I have a relationship with a Jewish woman I find particularly lovely.

I hope each of you find the answers you’re searching for because these are important questions.
 
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No, but trying to put our fingers on exactly what subset the original post was talking about, if we’re saying it was in fact referring to a subset, is.

I have asked G to elaborate on who exactly he was talking about in the light of his framing of “the bully” who has played “this”card for 2000 years. His response was:

If we are talking about 2000 years ago, what kind of a “sub-set” is that? It obviously not genocidal Jews in Gaza. When we finally determined that the question he wants to address is “why did the Jews get kicked out of so many countries?”, we then, finally, establish that he is NOT talking about a subset at all—he is talking about the Jewish people.

At this point, I think it is clear that talking about subsets is irrelevant moving forward if we focus on what Giammarco has intended to discuss.

For you to bring up subsets again in response to my post (below) is completely missing the point and drive of it. Why not address the primary content?


Misty,

G is clearly talking about the Jews, here. His “they” are the Jewish people, not a subset of it.
I have had deep conversations in private with him on the topic so whilst you may busy yourself with the semantics of his pronoun usage, I will not.

When he says the Jewish he means a specific subset of the Jewish people whose behavior “could have” contributed to the entire Jewish community being ostracized.

I can explain what I mean or what I know he meant ( as clearly he also did for himself ) - but I cannot convince you or understand it for you. I’ll leave it at that for my end and exit stage left. 👀
 
I have had deep conversations in private with him on the topic so whilst you may busy yourself with the semantics of his pronoun usage, I will not.

When he says the Jewish he means a specific subset of the Jewish people whose behavior “could have” contributed to the entire Jewish community being ostracized.

I can explain what I mean or what I know he meant ( as clearly he also did for himself ) - but I cannot convince you or understand it for you. I’ll leave it at that for my end and exit stage left. 👀
That’s fair.

Regards.
 
Come on Erik , it's a legit question and a legit point of view.

I don't need AI to know what I know.

It's very simple : the exact same system, that has experienced the same behavior, is now doing the exact same thing they are legitimately worried about. Is this coherent then ?
Cause yeah , even in Palestine they have feelings.
Should we ask them what is fair and what is not? Or should we ask ai ?

Math ain't mathing

And how pointing this out makes me an antisemite or not sensibile ? Or with a private agenda....

I'm not listening to what sorry ?

Formulating a question is not politically correct ?
This is a new level that I have never experienced.
Guess I should read more on ai.






- Gr
 
@Akar

Thanks for taking the time to explain your perspective, G.

It felt meaningful and important to me to interact in this thread in the capacity that I have tried to do.

I am going to leave it where it is.
I feel that I would be repeating myself to go on.

I have tried in earnest to understand your position and to explain clearly why I interpreted what you said how I did, and give you good reasons for it, *while also trying to find a way to honor and move forward your question*, but I understand if you still think I am off base.

I really tried to meet you.
And be true to myself.

Regards,

Erik

*Edit
 
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@Akar

Thanks for taking the time to explain your perspective, G.

It felt meaningful and important to me to interact in this thread in the capacity that I have tried to do.

I am going to leave it where it is.
I feel that I would be repeating myself to go on.

I have tried in earnest to understand your position and to explain clearly why I interpreted what you said how I did, and give you good reasons for it, but I understand if you still think I am off base.

I really tried to meet you.
And be true to myself.

Regards,

Erik

-G
 
I've thought quite a long time about whether or not to contribute here and I am not sure I can do so successfully, but I'll have a go.

I think the only real reasons why Jewish people have been subject to persecution over the centuries is not because of some intrinsic 'bad gene', but because they have shown over 3,000 years that they retain a distinct and cohesive genetic, cultural and religious distinction wherever they live. This isn't unique to the Jewish people, but maybe theirs is the most long-lived example. Modern equivalents are Moslem populations living in majority Buddhist communities such as Myanmar, in Hindu majority populations such as India, and in communist countries such as China. To my mind, the reason why such sub-groups suffer persecution is because their differences make them difficult to control politically and their claim to ascendency in terms of their intrinsic values make them a threat, or to seem like a threat, to the surrounding majority.

The same thing is happening in present day Israel between Moslem and Jewish people. Israel has the greater economic and military power and is backed by America, a superpower, so things are reversed compared with previous centuries, but it's the same sort of story, played out over the ages and amplified by the way that Palestine as a geographical area is claimed as both home and as holy ground by both sides.

I don't think it helps much to go back over the history of how the state of Israel came into existence. It's now getting on towards the better part of a century since its first foundations were laid and the Jewish folks who live there are second and third generation who have no other home elsewhere in the world. For the founders, their homes in many cases lay in Europe amid the ashes of the holocaust and the fear of that must lie heavily on their national psyche. While it's true that the state of Israel came about partly as a result of American and British political manoeuvring, the primary cause lies in European fascism which was born in Italy and then proceeded to flourish in the Germanic states.

These are all problems that lie in the inaccessible past and cannot be undone. If we look at the present, the situation in the Middle East is very complicated and cannot to my mind be simplified into only a judgement against Israel for what has happened in the last three years. Israel set up territories that gave Palestinians a fair measure of self control 20 odd years ago, so it certainly isn't true that they have been implacably in favour of destroying the Palestinian people, but the terrorist Hamas group came into power immediately in Gaza with a clearly stated, implacable aim of the destruction of the state of Israel. As far as I can see, if they had the power, they would attempt to do to Israel what people accuse Israel of doing to them - the events of 7 Oct 2023, aimed almost entirely at civilians, are a clear indication of this.

But maybe a lot of the problems in that part of the world could be calmed down if the hotheads on each side were to take a break and let things be, long enough for peace to take hold and good political solutions to evolve. Unfortunately this cannot happen, because Iran is using the Palestinian cause as a way of pursuing its own ambition for Middle East hegemony. Iran is as committed to the destruction of the state of Israel as Hamas, and with a far greater and more realistic threat. The leaders involved on the Palestinian side - both from Hamas and Iran - are as evil and as cynical as can be, in my opinion. They don't give a damn about the ordinary Palestinian folks living within Israel-controlled territory - they deliberately provoked Israel into the response they got, knowing it would lead to the deaths of countless thousands of their own people, which they use as a propaganda weapon against Israel.

This has inevitably pushed moderate politicians in Israel into the background and the country is now led by extremist Zionists and war-mongers. Politically it has been almost impossible for them to entertain the possibility of a settlement based on two states. Many people in the West think this is a good way forward, but a two state solution would have borders that are much harder to defend than present day Israel, and it seems very possible that a new full Palestinian state would retain the objective of the elimination of Israel - with continued and reinforced Iranian backing.

It's a disgrace that Israel seems to be reluctant to stamp out West Bank settlement by Israelis which seems to me to risk pushing West Bank Palestinians into extremism too. I don't understand why they allow what seem to be a minority of Israelis to continue doing this.

But in the end, the whole thing seems to me to be an awful tangled mess. For myself, I take the line of line whoever has not sinned should cast the first stone, because every Western and Middle Eastern society is party to how this mess has come about over the ages. Are Israelis to blame for where things have got to - Oh yes! But so is Hamas, so is Iran, so is Europe, so is America, so was the Roman Empire, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Ottoman Empire, the ancient Egyptians.

Are the Jewish people as an ethnic group in some sense to blame? Is it in their genes and their souls to be uniquely divisive and to be cruel when they hold some sort of power over others? I think every distinct people on Earth can be like this in given circumstances - it's a human trait, including one that the liberal West can exhibit all too easily. I don't think Jewish folks are unique in this regard, only in the cards dealt them by fate over the millennia.
 
  1. humans are irrational
  2. humans are tribal
  3. humans other those unlike themselves
  4. humans are easily programmable to various ends
  5. humans fight with one another
Wash, rinse, repeat. So it goes in one place, so it goes in three others.

Cheers,
Ian
 
It's a disgrace that Israel seems to be reluctant to stamp out West Bank settlement by Israelis which seems to me to risk pushing West Bank Palestinians into extremism too. I don't understand why they allow what seem to be a minority of Israelis to continue doing this.
Excellent post (and I was reluctant to say anything either). I think they want to make it as difficult as possible to disentangle the West Bank from Israel in future to ensure no two-state solution.
 
Original post(er)
It can imply or be interpreted as targeting the individual, regardless
 
OP in this forum has always meant "original post"
I take that clarification to mean that I probably misinterpreted the meaning you intended in your earlier post. If you were referring to the “original post” as being racist and not the “original poster” then I apologize. Regards.
 
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I've thought quite a long time about whether or not to contribute here and I am not sure I can do so successfully, but I'll have a go.

I think the only real reasons why Jewish people have been subject to persecution over the centuries is not because of some intrinsic 'bad gene', but because they have shown over 3,000 years that they retain a distinct and cohesive genetic, cultural and religious distinction wherever they live. This isn't unique to the Jewish people, but maybe theirs is the most long-lived example. Modern equivalents are Moslem populations living in majority Buddhist communities such as Myanmar, in Hindu majority populations such as India, and in communist countries such as China. To my mind, the reason why such sub-groups suffer persecution is because their differences make them difficult to control politically and their claim to ascendency in terms of their intrinsic values make them a threat, or to seem like a threat, to the surrounding majority.

The same thing is happening in present day Israel between Moslem and Jewish people. Israel has the greater economic and military power and is backed by America, a superpower, so things are reversed compared with previous centuries, but it's the same sort of story, played out over the ages and amplified by the way that Palestine as a geographical area is claimed as both home and as holy ground by both sides.

I don't think it helps much to go back over the history of how the state of Israel came into existence. It's now getting on towards the better part of a century since its first foundations were laid and the Jewish folks who live there are second and third generation who have no other home elsewhere in the world. For the founders, their homes in many cases lay in Europe amid the ashes of the holocaust and the fear of that must lie heavily on their national psyche. While it's true that the state of Israel came about partly as a result of American and British political manoeuvring, the primary cause lies in European fascism which was born in Italy and then proceeded to flourish in the Germanic states.

These are all problems that lie in the inaccessible past and cannot be undone. If we look at the present, the situation in the Middle East is very complicated and cannot to my mind be simplified into only a judgement against Israel for what has happened in the last three years. Israel set up territories that gave Palestinians a fair measure of self control 20 odd years ago, so it certainly isn't true that they have been implacably in favour of destroying the Palestinian people, but the terrorist Hamas group came into power immediately in Gaza with a clearly stated, implacable aim of the destruction of the state of Israel. As far as I can see, if they had the power, they would attempt to do to Israel what people accuse Israel of doing to them - the events of 7 Oct 2023, aimed almost entirely at civilians, are a clear indication of this.

But maybe a lot of the problems in that part of the world could be calmed down if the hotheads on each side were to take a break and let things be, long enough for peace to take hold and good political solutions to evolve. Unfortunately this cannot happen, because Iran is using the Palestinian cause as a way of pursuing its own ambition for Middle East hegemony. Iran is as committed to the destruction of the state of Israel as Hamas, and with a far greater and more realistic threat. The leaders involved on the Palestinian side - both from Hamas and Iran - are as evil and as cynical as can be, in my opinion. They don't give a damn about the ordinary Palestinian folks living within Israel-controlled territory - they deliberately provoked Israel into the response they got, knowing it would lead to the deaths of countless thousands of their own people, which they use as a propaganda weapon against Israel.

This has inevitably pushed moderate politicians in Israel into the background and the country is now led by extremist Zionists and war-mongers. Politically it has been almost impossible for them to entertain the possibility of a settlement based on two states. Many people in the West think this is a good way forward, but a two state solution would have borders that are much harder to defend than present day Israel, and it seems very possible that a new full Palestinian state would retain the objective of the elimination of Israel - with continued and reinforced Iranian backing.

It's a disgrace that Israel seems to be reluctant to stamp out West Bank settlement by Israelis which seems to me to risk pushing West Bank Palestinians into extremism too. I don't understand why they allow what seem to be a minority of Israelis to continue doing this.

But in the end, the whole thing seems to me to be an awful tangled mess. For myself, I take the line of line whoever has not sinned should cast the first stone, because every Western and Middle Eastern society is party to how this mess has come about over the ages. Are Israelis to blame for where things have got to - Oh yes! But so is Hamas, so is Iran, so is Europe, so is America, so was the Roman Empire, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Ottoman Empire, the ancient Egyptians.

Are the Jewish people as an ethnic group in some sense to blame? Is it in their genes and their souls to be uniquely divisive and to be cruel when they hold some sort of power over others? I think every distinct people on Earth can be like this in given circumstances - it's a human trait, including one that the liberal West can exhibit all too easily. I don't think Jewish folks are unique in this regard, only in the cards dealt them by fate over the millennia.
I’m so glad you decided to add what you did to this thread. It’s very helpful, I think.
 
Thanks, @John K for your input.

@all

As an Italian, I want to clarify two fundamental points: In the wake of the events that took place during the Fascist era, those of us who came later were taught that such a thing must never happen again—because we bear a historical responsibility.

Secondly—for the sake of accuracy—Fascism did not originate as an antisemitic ideology. Not at all. This does not downplay Mussolini’s actions or make them any less serious; it simply links them to the behavior of that other madman in Germany.

As for my question: we aren't talking about race; we are talking about religion.
And, like any religion, it has its own radical extremists.
I was wondering whether this kind of extremist behavior might have contributed to the stereotypes upon which antisemitism rests.

On one hand, we have Golda Meir saying this ( former Prime Minister of Israel back in time):


On the other hand, we have a radical right-wing group saying this, simply to justify its hatred of Muslims.


In November 2019, I was in Ashkelon when the State of Israel struck a Hamas leader with a highly precise explosive charge. At the time, I too maintained that Hamas's charter was the major problem for the Israelis, given that the document itself did not recognize the State of Israel. Indeed, whenever we had to run to the hotel shelters, I understood exactly what the public sentiment was.



10806.webp

(Ashkelon - November 2019)

But now , all that preciseness in modern warfare has disappeared, to the point over 77.000 civilian were killed. By bombs and bullets, not concentration camps. That's how wild things are going.

And sincerely, in 10/20 years , I want to be remembered as someone that saw the genocide and didn't stay silent.

Cause yeah the video evidence says that this whole mess in middle east was planned over 20 years ago.



-G
 
Original post is made by the original poster.

Therefore, equivalent, no difference, unless of course the original poster has been possessed or something.
I apologize, you are correct, I should have been more specific. In my opinion the first post in this thread is clearly and unabashedly racist, secondarily, the assault on Palestine is genocidal and last but not least, I do not know if the the poster of the first post is a racist.
 
I apologize, you are correct, I should have been more specific. In my opinion the first post in this thread is clearly and unabashedly racist, secondarily, the assault on Palestine is genocidal and last but not least, I do not know if the the poster of the first post is a racist.
Quote the text that is clearly and unabashedly racist.
 
I apologize, you are correct, I should have been more specific. In my opinion the first post in this thread is clearly and unabashedly racist, secondarily, the assault on Palestine is genocidal and last but not least, I do not know if the the poster of the first post is a racist.
So would you then agree that a subset of the Palestinian people ( Hamas ) behaved as bullies? If so, does this opinion not also imply unabashed racism on your behalf towards ALL Palestinians?

According to your argument here, it does.
 
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